As you well know Kansas is experiencing one of the worst droughts in history. As a result Perry Lake (a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers project) has been adversely affected. This has happened in the past and has rarely resulted in dire consequences. Nonetheless the Corps has been releasing water from our lake at a rate that may adversely affect our harbor in the very near future. It is likely that decreasing depths will first jeopardize deep draft sailboats in slips at PYC, as well as boats near the shoreline. Besides the potential for grounding in slips there is a risk of hard-grounding against concrete anchors scattered throughout the harbor. If the situation becomes severe all boats might have to be removed from the harbor.
Your Board of Governors is committed to keeping you informed of water levels in the harbor. We will do our best to provide you with information about water levels at each dock as soon as we have that information available. It is important to note that depths will continue to go down as long as the Corps releases water from the lake. It is the responsibility of every individual PYC member to check on their own boat to insure that there is adequate water for it to navigate the harbor. Your Board of Governors will also make every effort to mark obstructions (e.g., cement dock anchors) as they become hazards. If you “find” any of these hazards yourself please contact a board member immediately so we can mark these.
Again, your Board of Governors will provide updates on this situation at regular intervals. Please regularly check PYCnews.com and your e-mail for these updates. And if you notice any substantive problems with water levels in our harbor please let us know by sending an e-mail to a Board Member. We will do our best to find and mark obstructions in the harbor created by this low water situation.
Thanks for your cooperation and help with this challenging situation.
Will the ACE provide a schedule of planned release dates that will give us the ability to predict when it will be necessary to move out all of the boats before the level becomes critical?
Rock Creek has a lot of empty slips but I don’t know if they are any better off than us. Since they are under new management maybe we could work out a deal with them if their water level is better than ours. Just a thought.
Thanks for the update.
Regards,
Terry Preston
Cell 913 523-6042
Hi Terry,
Thanks for your question and suggestion.
I just posted a new article to PYCnews.com. In this article I include links to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers as well as a tool for estimating water levels in our harbor and PYC slips.
Please try out this tool and let me know if it’s helpful.
Thanks,
Bruce
No, the local office has no way of knowing when and how much the water will be released. All that comes from the regional or national level. Generally even the three day is somewhat speculation. If it rains at all above the lake they wait to release and that decision is every day different as it may rain on the other side of the state of Missouri and that will have us wait to release. They are on our side as the low lake causes all kinds of problems for them also.
What they have told us is they can go to 888.5 between now and October first. They do not want to but can.
In short the local corp people really can not keep us informed as they are never sure themselves. They do however do their best to give us all the info they get so we can be as prepared as possible.
I phoned them last week as they were migrating to a new web environment and many water level reports were not available (they are now though). I was told the following (some of which is the same as what Ricardo noted above):
Perry does what they are told, and it changes often.
They cannot go any lower than 888.5 until October 1. After October 1 they are allowed to drop another 3 feet. Realize they could release to 888.5…and then evaporation could take it lower.
They cannot release from the huge northern reserves until some bird gets done nesting on Missouri River sandbars.
The person I spoke with thought that nesting season was over in 1-2 weeks. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but unlike the last time we went through this….Fort Peck, Oahe, Garrison, etc. have plenty of water.
Question is: will the Corps use it? Last time we were told they HAD to use Perry because those were 20 feet low. Now they are not, so we’ll see.
In closing….I just have to wonder where the nesting birds went last year? I-29 overpasses maybe? (Couldn’t resist).
I talked to the lake management expert with the Kansas Water Office. He predicted we will hit 888.5 in two weeks. We are right on schedule. The water dropped 1.8 inches in the past 24 hours. At that rate we will be at 888.5 in 10 days. Rain is the wild card. The Water Office expects the Corps to use water from the large main stem reservoirs on the Missouri River whenever the Least Terns and Plovers vacate the sand bars. After we hit 888.5, evaporation becomes another wild card. The previous lake superintendent once told me the lake can lose up to 1/2 inch a day to evaporation. I think that would be uncommon, but 1/4 inch might be realistic.
I know it’s a strange question but there might be dire times ahead… Would it be possible for boats to anchor out on the lake outside of the harbor? It would be risky but better than being left sitting on the bottom for those who have no trailer or cradle… Would the CoE allow such a thing?
If I remember correctly from a number of years ago when we had the same issue the question of anchoring was asked and the CoE said that it was not allowed.
Once they release the water to the north, how long would it take to get here?
In the low water years 2002 – 2003 we proposed anchoring outside the harbor and/or anchoring mooring balls with lighted markers. The Corps responded with an emphatic no. The law requires any boat at anchor must have a person on board at all times and must show an anchor light at night. We did have a couple who did anchor their boat outside the harbor most of the summer of 2002, but they were very conscientious about adhering to the law, knowing that law enforcement was watching.
Gregg tells me he and several others have checked water depths against John’s interactive depth chart and find the chart to be accurate.
Mark Faltermeier pulled out on our ramp today with some difficulty. He had to go off the end of the ramp to get the trailer deep enough. He has a 5 ½ foot draft.
We know there is a drop off at the end of the ramp. Anyone attempting to pull out a deep draft boat on our ramp is risking damage to their trailer.
As of this morning 889.36, since the USACE site has been migrating.
When should I be worried that I could not make an escape out of PYC harbor? Should I or the board make a deal with one of the other marinas to use a deeper slip for Theda Eileen (slip #35 6′ draft)? The ramp is not a viable option for me since I have no trailer and it is too shallow already.
Please advise.
Crapgame: Then make a DEAL!
Big Joe: What kind of deal?
Crapgame: A DEAL, deal! Maybe the guy’s a Republican. “Business is business,” right?
(From the Movie “Kelly’s Heroes”)
Tony Borum
s/v “Theda Eileen”
I called USACE KC Office today. I did not call on behalf of PYC…just “some guy with a boat.” I wanted to verify what I thought the 3-day forecast report was telling me. They confirmed that on Sunday, August 5, the outflow would be reduced to 25 cfs. Anticipated elevation at that time will be 889.04. They will hold at 25 cfs through August. In late August/early September they will re-evaluate what (if any) changes may be necessary. They estimated evaporation at 200ths (.02) of a foot per day when there is no rain. This is about 1/4 inch/day. So, an inch every 4 days. So, by 8/31 with no rain we’d be hanging right around 888.5. Here is the site for the 3 day forecast:
http://www.nwd-mr.usace.army.mil/rcc/nwk/lakepool.txt
Here is a site for 8 days prior, but I like it because it shows the inflow rates:
http://www.nwd-mr.usace.army.mil/rcc/nwk/7daylak3.txt
By the way, the above information came from the Chief Public Affairs Officer David Aolarik. He did not initially have the answers, but said “he knew exactly who to talk to” and obtained the information in about 20 minutes. I would advise against calling the Corps at Perry. While the lady there is nice enough, she cannot tell you much more than the current elevation and current outflow. She had no idea the online 3-day forecast existed, and seemed to think the northern reserves were still in dire condition. The above links are published by the KC office.
I pulled Argo Thursday 8/02 around 6:30 pm. The boat draws 5’-5”, the trailer is triple axel, all tires were in the mud to get deep enough. The trailer rolled gradually into the mud, there was no sharp drop-off at the end of the concrete. The trailer sank into the mud deeper than the axels, the rear C-channel of the trailer was packed with mud as it came out. When pulling the boat/trailer out, it came out smoothly without a big “bump” as it went from the mud to the concrete. My only trouble was getting the trailer in deep enough to allow the boat to pass over the rear pads (which are rather tall). The water depth approaching the pump-out dock and onto the trailer was right around 7.0-7.3’ (@ lake elevation 889.43). The trailer was noticeably deeper on the west edge of the ramp vs. the middle or east edge.
I have spoken to a few people that are moving their boats to our Marina, until the water level goes back up. The Rock Creek Marina & Resort Sail Harbor side does have slips available thru the fall and winter months if anyone is interested. Call the Office for pricing at 785-484-2656.
The only way you will get fairly accurate measurments on the depth of water will be to ask a person with a depth finder… know of any fisherman?? to give you the numbers that their depth finder tells them along the docks. We recently had this done for all our slips in the Sail Harbor.
Thanks,
Yvonne Hewitt
Managing Owner
Yvonne,
Thanks for your nice comments about PYC and our website (in your other posting). Just thought I’d let you know that PYC members who’ve gone to Rock Creek Marina in the last week have had nothing but good things to say about how well they’ve been treated. We all really appreciate that!
If you wish to provide any more information about slips at your marina under these circumstances please let us know. We welcome your input.
Warm regards,
Bruce
According to the Topeka Capital Journal the Corps will stop releasing water to support Missouri river navigation on August 7th. This was done at the urging of Brownback, Roberts and other Kansas legislators. But the deep drafts, as noted with Mark’s experience will not be good. I’l bet anything 4 and over will have difficulty getting a trailer deep enough.
http://cjonline.com/news/2012-07-30/corps-stop-releasing-supplemental-water
We pulled our Laser 28 Saturday after the races and had some difficulty getting on the trailer. We draw 5′ with the Laser 28. We had to drop the trailer off the ramp and into the mud. We were able to clear the back rail of the trailer with the keel but the problem was getting the trailer low enough to get on the pads. We had to winch the boat as well as apply nearly full motor. If you are considering pulling I suggest knowing how deep the trailer needs to be to clear the keel as well as to get onto the pads. Also in my experience, once you get the trailer into the mud, going further into the lake does not make that much of depth difference. It gets pretty level off the concrete.
We went out sailing yesterday. (great day). But, I bumped a hard object between Rodeo and Boardwalk, twice. The second time was totally my fault. Just over halfway west of Rodeo and approx. 20′ north of the end of Boardwalk. I also have a steel cable running SE to NW, just in front of my keel about 4′ below the water surface. I am going to (temporarily) move Theda Eilene (Rodeo #35) to Rock creek as soon as possible. Thanks everyone for the updates and information.
Hi Bruce,
Yesterday, August 5th at 5:00 P.M. I measured the depth or our slip at 4 spots (Party Dock #36, which was numbered #35 on John Gall’s spread sheet)
I have a total depth of 7’6″, which checked out to be right on the number to John’s spread sheet considering the pool number for the day at that time. With the additional weight in my boat I am drawing 4′. We are leaving town for a about 2 weeks at the end of August so I will be watching the water level in the event I need to move my boat prior to our departure.
I saw your note as well a Pat’s and others in the PYCnews and am tracking on a daily basis. Though everyone could benefit from the number I found at my slip.
Thanks,
Terry Preston
Ericson 27 “Julie B”
913 523-6042
So as not to get any sticker shock, as far as I know (not much) there is no short term at DJ’s they have a winter rate that apparently starts if you move now of $1,200, it may be more for larger boats, i heard that number over the weekend from several people. I am not aware of any pricing for Perry Yacht and Marina but I would expect similar.
As to water level, I sailed with Bill Mendel on the U-20. We did not hit bottom during the races which had a gate off of our lower lot and a Windward mark in the middle of the lake about 1 mile North. On Sunday I want with Brinkmeyer’s and we sailed further north and there are several places where the old road across the river at Old Town (E to W) is now visible. There is also an object I can only assume another road, that runs across the lake (N to S) as one goes east of the boat ramp. Their boat only draws 2.5 so we had no concerns. If you draw deep please be aware.
Enough with the gloom and doom, great sailing both days, if any attention is paid at all there is no real reason to not sail. Plenty of people went out both days and had great weather, a pleasant change from the HOT HOT heat.
Last People actually walked to Grabbers and beyond it. The buoy is only a guideline, DO NOT get close to it, the boys walked to it. Got muddy but did not have to swim. Also the road that was North of Grabber’s is shallow as is the point that is between Grabbers and ‘the beach’ both of these hazards are now much further east than one would expect. If sailing anything with any draft I would stay east of a line from the lower lot to the buoy at grabbers.
HTH, Ricardo
On Friday, August 3 I posted a synopsis of my conversation with the Corps which focused on outflow releases being maintained at 25 cfs through the end of August. THIS HAS CHANGED. I noticed after only 4 days they went up to 100 cfs, so I called and had a lengthy discussion with Chris Purzer, Chief of the Water Management Section in Kansas City. It remains true that the Corps will no longer be supporting navigation from the Kansas reservoirs. This allowed them to drop Perry to 25cfs which is what they had hoped to retain. However, for water quality and the WaterOne intake pumps they must retain 1000cfs of flow on the Kansas River at DeSoto. Unexpectedly, the flow rate at DeSoto began falling below 1000cfs. He indicated there are likely a lot of pumps taking water out of the river (presumably legally…he stated). Regardless, they had to increase the Perry outflow to meet the water quality threshold at DeSoto. They have already been relying heavily on Milford and Tuttle. In the mind of the Corps 25 cfs to 100 cfs is not that big a difference. But, it is for our harbor. Based on the last couple days, instead of dropping 1/4 inch a day (.02), the lake is now dropping about 3/4 inch a day (.06). So, instead of reaching 888.50 around the end of August, we’ll likely hit it in about 4 days. I asked if they will drop back to 25cfs when the lake hits 888.50. The answer is “no”. I asked if there was ANY LAKE LEVEL at which they would stop releasing. He said “no”. While there are limits when it comes to navigation support, water quality is a whole other ballgame. They are permitted to drop to 750cfs at DeSoto on November 1….but that is a long way away. They are also permitted reduce water quality targets if Tuttle drops to 1065 elevation. Tuttle is still at 1071.57, so that’s a long way away also. There remains a possibility the Corps could also increase the outflow from Perry above 100cfs, but they hope they don’t have to. Everyone must watch the lake level very closely. As of this morning it’s at 888.75. Heck….if it keeps dropping at .06/day we’ll be at 888.00 in under 2 weeks.
I was in Rodeo 14, and measured the depth yesterday. While the front of the slip matched the spreadsheet, I lost 4 inches at the stern. So those of you on the East side of Rodeo may want to check your depth.
We moved to Rock Creek yesterday. Yvonne (post above) was very pleasant to work with and I believe the deal they are offering is fair. Pay for 3 months to 10/31, at which time either pay for winter, haul out, or by the grace of God move back to PYC following torrential rains.
Thanks for staying on top of this. We have some big decisions to make about this situation and every bit of input and data helps. If you learn anything else please let us know.
We also moved to Rock Creek Sunday morning. The 3 month deal is very reasonable.
I am sure that I plowed my way out of the harbor. I draw 6’6″ at Rodeo #35 and I measured Sunday morning and had 6’2″ under my beam. I don’t know if you will allow it but if anyone needs my slip feel free to use it but be aware of the cable that runs across the bow, it is 3 or 4 feet below the water running north west. Hope to crawl back and raft up some weekend. I wish we could all pool our resources and hire a rain maker. We are praying for rain so we can come back this year.
Tony and Tiger
First of all…..look at that beautiful area of rain out there this morning! Rain baby rain….and please hold together and get over Perry!!!!
For all of you “data geeks” out there…….
The guy at the Corps told me about some very powerful data reporting tools maintained by the US Geological Service. Yesterday he sent me a couple links specific to our concerns which allow more real-time monitoring of the lake elevation and the Kansas River flows.
This first link provides Perry Lake elevation reported at 15 minute increments, so we need not wait for the 8am report every morning. Choose your “Output Format” (I prefer using the Table), then select your date range. As you’ll see, at 7:30am today we were at 888.66.
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ks/nwis/uv/?site_no=06890898&PARAmeter_cd=62614,62615,00054
This link is the Kansas River flow rate at DeSoto. Again, choose your “Output Format” (again, I prefer the Table), then select the date range. As you’ll see, DeSoto has fallen below 1,000 cfs for more than the last 24 hours. We’ll have to see if they bump the Perry outflow in response….but hopefully the huge (unexpected) area of rain out there this morning will help.
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ks/nwis/uv/?site_no=06892350&PARAmeter_cd=00065,00060
I haven’t found anything which allows us more frequent monitoring of Perry Lake outflows. But, this is the Delaware River flow rate as measured at Perry. Currently showing at 87 cfs…so perhaps it could be an indicator of Perry outflows. If there’s no rain and it shoots up to 200 cfs, then it would be a good bet they increased the flow out of Perry. Same deal, choose Output Format and date range.
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ks/nwis/uv/?site_no=06890900&agency_cd=USGS
You can definitely see in the Delaware River report where they bumped the outflow from Perry beginning around 8/11 – 8/12. So it would stand to reason that if we see any significant change in this data that it’s either raining or coming from Perry. (For all this analytical effort though it may be easier to just wait for the 8am daily Perry Lake Report.)
For all of the above Reports, the link should come in correctly, but the field you want for “Available Data for this Site” is…..Time Series: Current/Historical Observations
This link is the portal to the same information for all Kansas reservoirs in case you would want to monitor Milford and Tuttle.
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ks/nwis/current/?type=lake&group_key=basin_cd
This link is the portal for all Kansas streamways.
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ks/nwis/current/?type=flow&group_key=basin_cd
A.J.
AJ: You really are a water level geek! And I thank you for it!! JimG
Team Data……
I asked today if the Corps had reduced their target at DeSoto, since the flow was clearly below 1,000 for the last day (which of course also raises the issue as to whether they would be bumping the Perry outflows). Please see the reply below……
From the Corps:
DeSoto target will likely remain 1,000 cfs until 1 November.
Come 1 November we target 800 cfs at DeSoto (if Tuttle Creek elevation is greater than 1065.0) We target 700 cfs at DeSoto after 1 November if Tuttle Creek elevation falls below 1065.0.
For the next day or two conditions appear to be favorable for maintaining our current releases without change. But as you can see, conditions are ….fluid.
LeCompton, which is the next gage upstream of DeSoto is running a little “higher” than DeSoto and indicates all of our 1,000 cfs release is “in the system”. Provided DeSoto is 950-ish we’ll attempt to conserve water in the lakes and not increase releases.
If DeSoto continues to act inconsistent with good readings at LeCompton, then we often request that the USGS make a calibrating measurement at the gage site.
There is also the possibility that irrigators are removing water from the river between LeCompton and DeSoto. Under these circumstances we’d consult with the Kansas Water Office for their opinion/assessment: But generally speaking, in the past we’ve not increased releases beyond the 1,000 we are already providing (500 tuttle creek, 400 milford, and 100 perry) simply because somebody is withdrawing water.
(End from the Corps).
Here is the Kansas River at LeCompton flow site:
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ks/nwis/uv/?site_no=06891000&PARAmeter_cd=00065,00060
So, status quo for the time being, which means we continue to slowly drop.
888.62 at 5:30pm….not sure I like being able to watch it drop.
A.J.
Gregg tells me Mike Spurgeon is scheduled to pull several PYC boats on the Thompsonville ramp this Friday and Saturday. The best way to get on his schedule is through the “Schedule Service” link on his web site: http://www.spurgeonyachts.com.
Is the “Thompsonville” ramp the one at Perry Yacht Marina? If not, where is it?
How low can you go……
Just noticed the Corps increased outflow to 90 cfs today, and is forecasting 125 cfs going forward. Not good. Haven’t looked deeply into the data, but presume with the recent dry spell river flow rates were down and they needed more water. Milford and Tuttle are way down compared to Perry….so I guess it’s our turn. Hopefully we’ll get some rain this week.